why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

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why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby aries » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:57 am

Moshe tells Pharoah the Jews are just going for a little trip to the desert to have religious festival. He doesn't say to free the Jews from slavery and let them leave. Why doesn't he tell Pharoah the truth? I learned that Pharoah understood quite well what Moshe was asking but it would be impolite to address a king in this fashion. I think that HaShem wanted Pharoah to free the Jews of his own free will without having it dictated. Similar to a man who refuses to divorce his wife, you keep hitting him till he says "I want to divorce my wife".

In Jewish law, a man must volunterally divorce his wife. He can not be made to divorce his wife against his will. On the other hand, one can divorce a woman against her will. Several ordinances were made up over the centuries to handle this problem. Among Askenazic Jews, a woman can not be divorced against her will for the last thousand years or so.
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby Enora » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:54 am

Among Askenazic Jews, a woman can not be divorced against her will for the last thousand years or so.


Same applies for sephardim... but who needs a divorce when you can just have a 2nd wife? 8-)
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby aries » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:12 pm

As I said different mechanisms existed to protect the wife, e.g., the Askenazim just banned second wives. The Sephardim put it in the Ketuvah that the man will not take a second wife without his first wife's approval. Similarly, the Sephardic Jews keep the Tekunah of the Gaonim, that if a woman wants out of the marraige, you force the husband to give her a divorce and she does not lose any rights in the marriage contract (which would not be talmudical law). The Askenazim dropped this rule since the woman was protected against being divorced against her will.
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby Enora » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:18 pm

Interesting! I didn't know that was why sephardim do force the man to give a get.
How does it work in Israel today? Legally speaking?
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby aries » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:11 pm

Legally speaking, one has a choice of initiating divorce in Askenazic, Sephardic or secular court. Wherever its starts, that is where it stays. Now the Sephardic Rabbainim agreed at the beginning of the state of Israel that they would only take one wife. In practice, the Sephardic and Askenazic Bet Din first try conciliation (this has been curtailed do to abuse) then have various means to put pressure on the husband, denial of driver's license, denial of any state funded position and finally jail, that is there is a special place in Israel jails for men who refuse to give a divorce. If a woman is found to be insane, then her husband can't divorce her. He is then permitted to take a second wife (about 30 /year). The big difference is Chalitzah. Askenazic Rabbis tend to use the full pressure for the woman to throw a shoe at the brother-in-law while the Sephardic Rabbis allow the brother-in-law to extort the poor victim.
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby Enora » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:39 pm

while the Sephardic Rabbis allow the brother-in-law to extort the poor victim.

How? Do you mean financially?
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby ittai » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:13 pm

He doesn't say to free the Jews from slavery and let them leave. Why doesn't he tell Pharoah the truth?

Moshe had been told (in Exo 3:18) to speak the words he used (in Exo 5:3).
Moshe told the truth to the amount that was wise and possible.
Pharaoh had closed his soul from listening to the whole truth.

(Pro 26:4) Answer not a fool according to his foolishness, lest you become like him, even you.
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby mariaw » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:18 pm

Because the Truth of their offerings distinguishes the Jewish people from the nations.

I apologize for the length of this:
Hosea 6.3---- Hashem comes like the Dawn whose emergence is certain

Three Day Journey
Exodus 8.23----Moses says “We shall go on a three day journey into the Wilderness and bring offerings to HASHEM, our G-d as He will tell us.”
Hosea 6.1-3 says “He has smitten and He will bandage us after two days. On the third day He will raise us up and we will live before Him. Let us know let us strive to know HASHEM.”

Israel’s offerings to HASHEM distinguish her from the offerings of nations.

The unique point to this story is to be able to distinguish the Jewish offerings from the various offerings of the nation’s.

What kind of celebration & offerings HASHEM requires according to Torah?

Joseph was not only sent into Egypt to sustain his family with food but also to supply the Egyptians with bread when their money ran out. How a nation sustains itself with money and no food is beyond my thinking, however, the Egyptians worried about it according to Genesis 47.15.
But this isn’t about money or food!!!!

This is a metaphor for nations trying to claim Torah’s Wisdom for themselves & instead of offering of a broken & contrite heart, they offer “wild beasts”.

Abraham & Isaac were correct to fear being killed by the violent and arrogant kings of this world who sought after their wives and wished to offer arrogance & hatred instead of a suitable offering. Genesis 26.9

The nations are once again becoming cities of Babel. They replace Torah’s wisdom, Knowledge & Understanding with ideology foreign to Torah. “And the brick served them as stone, and the bitumen served them as mortar.” Genesis 11.3
Instead of building Wise foundations for faith in G-d, they build enormous worldly religions to make names for themselves and, of course, to dominate the world. They mix a little Torah with a whole lot of corruption & blur the distinctions. So nothing has changed in several thousand years.

Exodus 8.19 ----How shall we know that HASHEM is in the midst of the land? “I shall make a distinction between My people & your people (Egypt & nations)---tomorrow this sign will come about.” In this particular example we read about a “swarm of wild beast come to the house of Pharaoh.”
So how is a “swarm of wild beasts” in the house of Pharaoh distinguished from the three-day journey in the Wilderness to bring offerings to HASHEM, our G-d as He will tell us.”
Insert at this point Psalms 51.18 where David declares that the L-RD desires the sacrifices of the lips, praise, a broken heart & spirit as well as humbleness.
Also Hosea 6.2
Joseph taught the Torah in Egypt and the Egyptians adopted Torah paths but mixed in a lot of other ideas. The nations would have perished long ago without some semblance of decency learned from teachers of Torah sitting among them.

I think the example for possible corruption of Torah before her time is understood in the story of Abraham & Sarah when Abimelech, king of Gerar, takes Sarah.

Sarah represents the beauty of Abraham’s wisdom and the nations want her but not always for right reasons. Like Abimelech, they will say,” in the innocence of my heart and integrity of my hands have I done this.” Genesis 20.1-7 According to Jewish sages, ignorance is no excuse.

The story of a possible abduction of Isaac’s wife, Rebecca, by Abimelech, king of the Philistines, is repeated in Genesis 26.6. This time Isaac is jesting with Rebecca who is “fair to look upon!”
At this point I would like to inject examples of joy & fun:
Torah’s idea of jesting with wisdom:
1 Chronicles 16.27 “Power & joyfulness dwell in the place where G-d dwells.”“Says God:
‘Rejoice in my precepts and I, too, will add further joy to your” (Midrash Tanchuma, Tazria, Ch.5)
"The shechinah (divine presence) does not abide in an atmosphere of sullenness, only in one of gaiety." (Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 30b) "

I think that never before in history is HASHEM’S Call for the nations to understand Torah & her origins with the Hebrew people more important.
Exodus 9.1----So said HASHEM, the G-d of the Hebrews: “Send out my people that they may serve me.”

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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby aries » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:22 pm

Enora wrote:
while the Sephardic Rabbis allow the brother-in-law to extort the poor victim.

How? Do you mean financially?


Financially. As I stated the Rabbinate has back off in recent years from helping the husband extort the wife. This is probably due in a good part to the introduction of female "toanot", female rabbinical court lawyers. (Technically Jewish courts don't have lawyers so we have to call them something else.) I have recently heard from the toanot that the behavior of the Rabbinical Bet Din has improved. However, I find it hard to believe that a court that goes around declaring that thousands of converts are not converts (which of course in itself a violation of about 10 torah laws) and that their own Rabbinical courts do not make valid conversions, is suddenly going to develop a humane approach to women.
Bottom line: The Rabbinical courts in Israel are dominated by the Cheredim. However, most of the customers are non-religious Jews and there is a severe communication problem. As a result, nearly half of the non-religious Jews just refuse to get married and prefer just to live together.

Nice computer program giving me the newest post before I post.
Maria - the same question on Moshe telling a lie, is asked on Avraham and Isaac lying about their wives. However, in the latter cases, it is well discussed in the midrashim.
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby Enora » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:09 pm

aries wrote: However, I find it hard to believe that a court that goes around declaring that thousands of converts are not converts (which of course in itself a violation of about 10 torah laws) and that their own Rabbinical courts do not make valid conversions, is suddenly going to develop a humane approach to women.
Bottom line: The Rabbinical courts in Israel are dominated by the Cheredim. However, most of the customers are non-religious Jews and there is a severe communication problem. As a result, nearly half of the non-religious Jews just refuse to get married and prefer just to live together.


Sigh, yes... these are current affairs in my circle lately. I'm sure you've heard of Rav Amsalem (who has my support!)
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