AzAzel

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AzAzel

Postby ittai » Sun May 01, 2016 6:44 am

In the past centuries they adopted the way to push in ravine the animal to be brought living in the wilderness to AzAzel. Our Gd is precise concernig the paragons. Remember Moshe in gettibg waters. Did the killing of these animals bring the nazis and others to their barbaric deeds?
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Re: AzAzel

Postby rivka » Sun May 01, 2016 6:50 pm

Why do you think there is a connection?

Also, why do you think the sacrifice of a goat was "barbaric"? That is certainly not a traditional Jewish viewpoint.
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Re: AzAzel

Postby ittai » Sun May 01, 2016 7:48 pm

Rivka, is there a connection, I do not know, I only ask.
I do not say that the sacrifice was barbaric, but the deeds of nazis were barbaric.
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Re: AzAzel

Postby rivka » Sun May 01, 2016 8:40 pm

If you don't see it as barbaric, then I am even more confused as to why you think there might be a connection.

The Nazis didn't need any ideas to feed their barbarism. The horrible things they did had no historical precedent.
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Re: AzAzel

Postby ittai » Sun May 01, 2016 9:08 pm

Sometimes the goat on which atonement was to be done and which was to be sent living to the wilderness was killed by pushing into ravine. This lawless killing I see to be in possible connection with the barbarous killing by the nazis.
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Re: AzAzel

Postby David_L » Mon May 02, 2016 1:54 am

I guess you could say there's a connection because the Nazis used the Jews as a scapegoat, and the goat for Azazel was the original "scapegoat." That doesn't mean that there's a cause-effect relationship.
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Re: AzAzel

Postby ittai » Mon May 02, 2016 3:32 am

Israel was a first-born and a victime for the heathens. Of course the nazis dd not understand this. I see a possiblle connection between killing the victimes to be left living and the murdering by nazis of the Jews to be left living.

Moshe hit the rock twice and see what happened.
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Re: AzAzel

Postby rivka » Mon May 02, 2016 3:51 am

David_L wrote:I guess you could say there's a connection because the Nazis used the Jews as a scapegoat, and the goat for Azazel was the original "scapegoat."
Even that's a bit of a stretch, unless we are going to include every other group of people used in history as a scapegoat. And the Jews weren't even the only scapegoats the Nazis used.

ittai wrote:Israel was a first-born
No, Esav was. Thus the whole incident with the blessings from their father.

ittai wrote:Moshe hit the rock twice and see what happened.
Well, it's more that he hit the rock when he was supposed to speak to it. Which is a lesson in how carefully we must follow Hashem's instructions. But I'm still not seeing what that has to do with the actions of any of our enemies.
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Re: AzAzel

Postby ittai » Mon May 02, 2016 4:12 am

rivka wrote:
ittai wrote:Israel was a first-born
No, Esav was. Thus the whole incident with the blessings from their father.

According Exo 4:22 Israel is His first-born.
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Re: AzAzel

Postby David_L » Mon May 02, 2016 4:40 am

rivka wrote:
David_L wrote:I guess you could say there's a connection because the Nazis used the Jews as a scapegoat, and the goat for Azazel was the original "scapegoat."
Even that's a bit of a stretch, unless we are going to include every other group of people used in history as a scapegoat. And the Jews weren't even the only scapegoats the Nazis used.


That was my humble attempt to find some meaning in this discussion. :)
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