Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

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Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

Postby David_L » Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:38 pm

A recent Daf Yomi, Bava Kamma 38, discussed the verse Habakkuk 3:6 - '[G-d] arose and judged the land; He saw and released the nations.'

From the (Artscroll) Gemara (Bava Kamma 38a):

"For Rav Yosef stated: ... He arose and made [the commandments] permissible for them[. i.e. He 'released' the nations from the commandments]. [This means that the nations are no longer obligated to fulfill the seven universal commandments.]"

The commentary states: "According to Rav Yosef's exposition, 'He saw and released the nations' means that He saw fit to released them from the commandments (Rashi, Avodah Zara 2b ...)." [38a3 n.14]

Does this mean that the Noachide/Noahide Laws are no longer binding on non-Jews? That can't be right, can it?
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Re: Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

Postby rivka » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:48 am

I tried to get some answers on this. My parents learn Daf Yomi together (they are on their 3rd time through, or maybe it's their 4th?), but not always quite caught up with everyone else.

So I had to wait for my mom's answer until they were. The first thing she pointed out was that we don't pasken by Rav Yosef, as a general rule. She also quoted a source that indicated that the nations were no longer obligated in the commandments, but we should teach them to them anyway because they would be punished for not keeping them.

Neither she nor I quite understand the inherent contradiction there, and I have not yet had a chance to email the person she suggested I ask next.
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Re: Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

Postby David_L » Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:19 pm

Thanks, Rivka, that's helpful.

It occurred to me that at Mount Sinai, the Jews entered into a covenant with G-d to observe the Torah. I don't know if there's an analogous covenant with the people of the world involving the Laws of Noah, so maybe that's another difference - it's more one-sided.

I understand about the difficulty keeping up in Daf Yomi, as it's very time consuming. I often get behind. But since catching up is so hard, that provides me with an incentive for not getting behind. :)
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Re: Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

Postby rivka » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:17 pm

David_L wrote:I understand about the difficulty keeping up in Daf Yomi, as it's very time consuming. I often get behind. But since catching up is so hard, that provides me with an incentive for not getting behind. :)
Yeah, my parents tend to catch up several days' worth at a time. It works for them, especially now that they are both retired. (Although that doesn't mean not busy, not for my parents!)

David_L wrote:I don't know if there's an analogous covenant with the people of the world involving the Laws of Noah, so maybe that's another difference - it's more one-sided.
That's also a good point.
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Re: Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

Postby David_L » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:44 am

In my Pirkei Avos (Chapters of the Fathers) study, I was struck by a verse:

... Yose ben Yoezer, a man of Tzeredah, says: Let your house be a place of meeting for Sages; become dirty by the dust of their feet; and be one who drinks thirstily their words.

Pirkei Avos 1:4


That could be interpreted as a reason to do Daf Yomi, i.e., to study the Talmud. Reading the Talmud is like sitting in on a meeting of the Sages, and I do it in my house, so... :)
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Re: Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

Postby rivka » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:15 pm

Nice!
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Re: Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

Postby mariaw » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:01 am

Habakkuk, the Prophet
The Stone Edition of Tanach is my source.
(Hab. 2:2)---HaShem instructs Hab to write this vision clearly & for quick reading.

THREE TIME PERIODS:
1. Hab. 1:12---HaShem from beginning of time.
2. Hab. 3:2---The midst of years when Israel faces impending exile.
This is when prophets are instructed to teach Torah & G-d's many
accomplishments in saving Israel. The day the sun & moon stands
still & Joshua wins the war is an example. (Hab. 3:11) (Joshua 10:12, 13)
3. Hab.2:3---Time of the End!

David's inquiry is found in the second time period listing G-d's many accomplishments:
My Tanach footnotes tell me that during the time after Moses when HaShem helps the
Jews subdue the Canaanite nations & assigns portions of land to the Jews,
HaShem leaves the tents of Cushan & the curtains of the land of
Midian to test Israel's faithfulness to Torah. (Judges 2:21,22)

Hashem's test will show where weaknesses can be strengthened & strengths can be reinforced.

Now, for the TIME OF THE END!
Habakkuk cannot rest, he feels his bones have rotted for he sees a vision of
famine regarding Torah:
Torah's Wisdom is represented by the blossoming fig tree, fruited grapevines,
olive trees, and food in the fields.
The prophet had previously & erroneously
assumed that Torah was weakened & justice
emerged distorted because he sees the wicked surrounding the righteous. (Hab. 1:4)
Maybe some of us today are thinking the same erroneous thoughts.
May we always continue in Torah
& be satisfied that G-d is truly in control & the ways of the world belong to HASHEM. (Hab. 3:6)

Hab. 2:19---All the earth is told that "HASHEM is in His holy Sanctuary;
let all the earth be silent before Him."......... WHY?

1. HASHEM is a living Spirit.
2. HASHEM teaches & fills the earth with the knowledge of His glory. (Hab. 2:14)
3. HASHEM'S Torah provides the righteous person his faith & he will live thru this faith. (Hab. 2:4)

I hope this helps
mariaw
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Re: Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

Postby David_L » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:31 pm

mariaw: I am having difficulty understanding how your reply answers my question.
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Re: Habakkuk 3:6 / Bava Kamma 38

Postby mariaw » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:42 pm

David,
I had trouble finding an answer to your question in Habakkuk since the only nations
mentioned are Cushan & Midian. Were these two nations keeping the laws of Noah or were they pagan idolaters at
the time Habakkuk wrote this book?

I'm really happy you mentioned Habakkuk as I found several amazing ideas to think about.
I hope all is not lost with me not answering your question.

mariaw
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