Dependence or freewill ?

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Dependence or freewill ?

Postby steve » Sun May 24, 2015 12:17 pm

Hi, I have read a few Breslev books on Emuna.
I have been thinking lately that Emuna the Breslev way is like total dependence on G-d, but is this what G-d wants ?
Would G-d not prefer individuals who believe but use their freewill ?
believing that G-d will supply even a lost button on a coat ( Rabbi Nathan of Breslev) seems like dependence to the extreme.
What is correct dependence or freewill ?

Steve
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Re: Dependence or freewill ?

Postby Hart60 » Sun May 24, 2015 10:10 pm

Hi Steve,
I believe God wants us to have free will and faith in him.
Emunah basically means Faith and is not based on reason.

Best wishes to you.
Dan.
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Re: Dependence or freewill ?

Postby steve » Wed May 27, 2015 9:56 am

Hi Dan,
Good to hear from you.
Emuna is about believing that everything that happens good or bad comes from G-d ( Breslev teachings) it seems to be a choice between dependency or freewill.
Their doesn't seem to be a place for both, a person who is dependent gives up their freewill.

With all due respect to Rabbi Nathan, to ask for a button on his coat..............does a father really want him to be so dependent?
If Rabbi Nathan asks for something as small as a button...............where is his freewill ?

Steve
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Re: Dependence or freewill ?

Postby Hart60 » Wed May 27, 2015 9:35 pm

Thanks Steve,
I sometimes think Rabbi Noson takes his master's teaching to the extreme but then I also kinda see what he's getting at metaphorically.
Didn't Rabbi Nachman teach that happiness and joy in life are the essentials for personal well being ? We shouldn't be worrying about minor things such as coat buttons.

We should learn to accept that all things are part of God's creation,good or bad,even illness is a natural process of life.

Best wishes,
Dan.
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Re: Dependence or freewill ?

Postby steve » Thu May 28, 2015 10:33 am

Hi Dan,
I think the teaching about the button is asking are you too proud to ask G-d even for the smallest thing, but it still seems like giving up freewill.

Steve
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Re: Dependence or freewill ?

Postby David_L » Thu May 28, 2015 3:19 pm

A habit I've adopted when driving my car to perform an errand is to first say something like "G-d willing, I will complete my errand successfully without any adverse occurrences." Afterwards I say "Thank G-d for helping me complete the errand and return home safety."

Of course, I don't expect G-d to drive the car for me; that's still my responsibility. But I believe that He's helping me.
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Re: Dependence or freewill ?

Postby Hart60 » Thu May 28, 2015 5:02 pm

I do much the same David, except I put more emphasis on thanking the Lord after the event,I feel that Hashem already knows what is ahead of me that day.

Dan.
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Re: Dependence or freewill ?

Postby Hart60 » Thu May 28, 2015 5:13 pm

steve wrote:Hi Dan,
I think the teaching about the button is asking are you too proud to ask G-d even for the smallest thing, but it still seems like giving up freewill.

Steve


Yes maybe it is Steve, but should we be asking God to provide such a small and insignificant thing that is not essential to our existence ?

Dan.
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Re: Dependence or freewill ?

Postby rivka » Fri May 29, 2015 5:01 am

Expect or demand, no. But why not ask?
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Re: Dependence or freewill ?

Postby Hart60 » Fri May 29, 2015 10:29 am

God has already made his plans so I don't think we need to ask,the button getting lost in the first place was probably part of his plan for that person for reasons unknown to us,maybe the coat will later be a danger to that person,maybe the coat will be discarded making it available to a more needy person,maybe it's a test to see what's important to us material things or spiritual things,trust in the Lord,the button will be found if it's meant to be. :)

Dan.
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