Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

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Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby Hart60 » Wed May 18, 2011 10:30 pm

I've read that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Noah's son Japheth and Judah was descended from Noah's son Shem and I've also read that a Jew is someone that is descended from Judah, so how can Ashkenazim be Jewish if they are not descended from Judah ?
Where am I going wrong with this ?

Thanks,
Dan.
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Re: Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby rivka » Thu May 19, 2011 6:09 am

Hart60 wrote:I've read that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Noah's son Japheth

Huh? All Jews are descended from Shem.
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Re: Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby Hart60 » Thu May 19, 2011 8:42 am

rivka wrote:
Hart60 wrote:I've read that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Noah's son Japheth

Huh? All Jews are descended from Shem.

Hi rivka, Yea I know,I was astounded when I read it, but I think the author is leaning on - Quote "Ashkenaz is believed to be the ancestor of the Germanic people" and that Ashkenazi Jews are mainly from Germany. Obviously making use of the similarity of the names.

Dan.
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Re: Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby Enora » Thu May 19, 2011 1:35 pm

Ashkenazi jews are called ashkenazim because of the region in which they lived in "ashkenaz" a region beyond the Rhine river meaning Germany... (from Genesis: the sons of Gomer are: ashkenaz , rifat and somebody else I can't remember but were talking about germans here and other populations from the region like scythes , not jews). Then there's the whole Khazar theory (a turkish tribe) that converted to judaism (which they did during the 9th century) but jews had already migrated through most of the mediterranean by then (and hence europe). Today's research on DNA shows us that sephardim and ashkenazim have more in common genetically then with local populations, so no there is no plausible reason to believe that the "separation" occurred with the sons of Noah. A sephardi, a mizrahi, an ashkenazi, genetically have more in common then a ashkenazi and a german or a moroccan jew and a moroccan berber, attesting to common paternal ancestors from an identical region not so far back.
Anyways, it's kind of recent that most of european jewry are called Ashkenazim. Before the term applied specifically to German jewry. Just like Sephardi normally applies to jews from spain and not arab countries.
Example: my husband is tunisian. Not Livorno tunisian, who came from italy and before spain... but a tunsi. You may think "same thing" but tell that to the families that even up to now barely mixed. My family, came to morocco in 1300 something from Burgos Spain, when they arrived they were shunned (along with all other sephardim) by the local communities that were already established for over 500 years. The synagogue in the mellah of marrakesh was built by the newly arriving sephardim because the local jews REFUSED to pray with them... but us sephardim were just too numerous and we took all of north africa over hehe hence were ALL sephardim now ;)
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Re: Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby Hart60 » Thu May 19, 2011 6:41 pm

Hi Enora and thanks for your reply.
Enora wrote:Ashkenazi jews are called ashkenazim because of the region in which they lived in "ashkenaz" a region beyond the Rhine river meaning Germany... (from Genesis: the sons of Gomer are: ashkenaz , rifat and somebody else I can't remember

I think it was Togarmah,his first son Haik is said to have inherited Mount Ararat and founded the Armenian nation.
Enora wrote: Then there's the whole Khazar theory (a turkish tribe) that converted to judaism (which they did during the 9th century)
That's an interesting one for me to look up.
Enora wrote: Today's research on DNA shows us that sephardim and ashkenazim have more in common genetically then with local populations, so no there is no plausible reason to believe that the "separation" occurred with the sons of Noah. A sephardi, a mizrahi, an ashkenazi, genetically have more in common then a ashkenazi and a german or a moroccan jew and a moroccan berber, attesting to common paternal ancestors from an identical region not so far back.
Yea, I've read something about the Y-chromosome from the paternal line and Mitochondrial DNA from the maternal line of Jews, bit to complicated for me though.
Enora wrote: Anyways, it's kind of recent that most of european jewry are called Ashkenazim. Before the term applied specifically to German jewry. Just like Sephardi normally applies to jews from spain and not arab countries.
Example: my husband is tunisian. Not Livorno tunisian, who came from italy and before spain... but a tunsi. You may think "same thing" but tell that to the families that even up to now barely mixed. My family, came to morocco in 1300 something from Burgos Spain, when they arrived they were shunned (along with all other sephardim) by the local communities that were already established for over 500 years. The synagogue in the mellah of marrakesh was built by the newly arriving sephardim because the local jews REFUSED to pray with them... but us sephardim were just too numerous and we took all of north africa over hehe hence were ALL sephardim now ;)

Very interesting,Many thanks.
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Re: Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby Enora » Fri May 20, 2011 12:04 am

That's an interesting one for me to look up.

Yeah the Khazars are interesting but that's about it. The arabs love the Khazar theory. They can say that they're (european jews in particular russian jews) not even originally connected to the land of Israel (being converts from khazaria). However, we were already everywhere that counts in europe by then and so thinking we're their descendants is kind of whatever. I even know some idiots today that won't call jews in France "jews" but "khazars" lol (and the jewish community in France is majority sephardi since the 50's. Why would we be descendants of khazars?). So you have to be careful with what you read about the Khazars.
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Re: Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby Hart60 » Fri May 20, 2011 4:45 pm

Thanks Enora,
Don't worry,even Wikipedia has discredited the theory -quote -"This theory… is supported by no evidence whatsoever. It has long since been abandoned by all serious scholars in the field", the history is interesting though.

Dan.
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Re: Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby Hart60 » Fri May 20, 2011 5:30 pm

I wonder how many people there are that have the Jewish sequence of DNA letters on their Y chromosomes and don't realise they are of Jewish descent ?

Dan.
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Re: Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby Enora » Sat May 21, 2011 10:32 pm

Hart60 wrote:I wonder how many people there are that have the Jewish sequence of DNA letters on their Y chromosomes and don't realise they are of Jewish descent ?

Dan.


Many! A lot of spaniards, berbers, portuguese, lebanese even palestinians and today, many americans. Just think of all the lost tribes scattered, isolated jews, forced conversions , intermarriage. Nothing new.
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Re: Ashkenazi Jews ancestry

Postby Hart60 » Sun May 22, 2011 10:54 am

Yes of course,including myself through my paternal line, so as descendents of Jacob (Israel) wouldn't we be bound by God's commandments given to Mosses for the Children of Israel ( "throughout their generations" ) ?

Dan.
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