Genesis 17

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Re: Genesis 17

Postby mariaw » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:32 pm

You are very welcome, Hart.

This brings up my thoughts on Lot's planning a wedding Huppa (the shadow of his roof) for his virgin daughters & sons-in-laws and finding himself entertaining angels as well.
Genesis 19:8-12 I think it very strange & confusing that even the angels had to ask Lot who was in the house?

The wedding might have included those Sodomites if the angels had not intervened.
Lot's virgin daughters were espoused to men who didn't
believe the false religions of close neighbors could somehow be harmful to purity.
In fact, those "sons-in-laws of Lot thought Lot was a "jester." Apparently they left themselves in Sodom.
Just think at the resulting children from such a "wedding." Sons-in-laws who mock & neighbors who thrive on evil.

I love the metaphor of the wedding Huppa representing HaShem's love and care of His people.

Hart, thanks so much for replying. I appreciate it.

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Re: Genesis 17

Postby Hart60 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:58 pm

I guess the question shows they were God's messengers about the oncoming Passover and were only given enough information for the main purpose of their visit.
Going back to Abraham and Sarah,I think Abraham knew Sarah was listening into the conversation at the edge of the tent and he realised that she would either also get the whole message or that she had already been told the big plan before the messengers arrived.See Rashi's commentary about Sarah already becoming menstruous whilst preparing the bread so only the cream and milk was served.

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Re: Genesis 17

Postby mariaw » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:45 pm

Dear Dan,
Thanks so very much again for your reply.
I think you must be correct that only the cream & milk was served.

I think HaShem's justice is on the table for discussion,
and I do know that Abraham got up & walked
with the angels before continuing the conversation, however, since you replied,
I have my doubts as to Torah's justice being a dead calf.
I live on a farm & raised cattle at one time.

If I had sent my young son out to "prepare" a calf, in this case the topic is justice,
he wouldn't come back with a piece of dead meat.
That calf most likely would be very much alive & kicking
as my son is a "youth with knowledge & design." Proverbs 1:3

Proverbs 1:3----is a meal that includes all aspects of HaShem's teachings.
"to accept wise discipline, righteousness, justice, and fairness."
And to "understand parable" is added as well.

My son would most likely be eating a jam sandwich while dragging back the poor little
calf who would be very much missing his mommy.

Recipe for my son's jam sandwich: Deut 32.14

14. Honey & oil, butter of cattle & sheep. Butter is the fat from milk after animals have
had their young. In this case the sheep giving the butter fat have given birth. It sounds like
the fat comes from the baby sheep, but as I ponder it......the fat comes from the milk in the
form of rich butter from their mothers.. The fathers of those baby sheep were "rams born in Bashan."
"For HaShem's kindness endures forever" is the idea I got from reading all of those passages in Psalms 136.20.

Huge grains of wheat (for bread I guessed)
Grape juice for jelly? Grape juice looks like blood but is really juice.

Now put all those ingredients together, toast the bread, spread on the butter & top with
grape jelly & you got a jam sammich. No meat included........which would have completely ruined it. Yuck!

I have found that Torah is about HaShem's mercy & justice which isn't necessarily unkind.
Divine justice includes lots of other things as well, but mostly speaks of life.

Thanks Dan........
My apology to the forum for being so lengthy & maybe a bit boring.

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Re: Genesis 17

Postby Kira » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:33 pm

Not at all! I've missed you!

Why do you say that asking a boy to prepare a calf means that he would bring it back alive, and not that he would butcher it?

I am learning these chapters with my youngest son now, who is in 2nd grade, and I told him that Avraham served them "steak" (he doesn't know from veal, but he definitely gets steak!)

Such a stark contrast between Avraham's meal for his guests and Lot's ... yet Lot was risking his life.

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Re: Genesis 17

Postby mariaw » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:03 am

Dear Kira,

I missed you too! Your question has prompted me to read more on the subject.

You asked, "Why do I think the child brought back a living calf rather than slaughtering
it for "take out." Isaiah 11.6-9 "They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain," is a good answer...
The child leading them may have been from Abraham's household.

I had to dig a little deep into the "Way of HaShem doing mercy & justice."

By the time the messengers had arrived, Abraham had already taught the children in his household about HaShem's Way of mercy & justice. Gen. 18.19

There are two parts to the discussion & two different places where they continued the
discussion: I believe the meal under the tree (study of Torah) reflected the birth of Isaac & Israel as a nation & did not include Sodom's destruction until the angels had gotten up from the table & began their journey toward Sodom.
Someone on another forum suggests the angels packed meat sandwiches to eat on their
way but I rather doubt it.

In fact, HaShem had hid this info from Abraham & even wondered if He should reveal it.

Everytime a calf is slaughtered, sin & death is an issue in the discussion.
A good example for that is 1 Sam. 28.24---The woman had a fattened calf in her house.
And you know the discussion between Saul, Samuel & the woman that took place in her kitchen.

And of course there is plenty of info of priest's duties in the Temple.

However, the child leading the calf, the young lion & the fatling
lying down together. This prophecy leaves out death altogether & teaches how the
righteous were meant to be like Noah while he was still feeding hay to the lions.

I could be wrong but I did read a bit on Rashi's idea about HaShem's way of mercy & justice.
Steak and potatoes are okay for ordinary meals but what will be served when angles show up?

Thanks Kira for your input....this is a fascinating thought.
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Re: Genesis 17

Postby mariaw » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:45 pm

Dear Kira,

First let me say, that your son is so blessed to have you for a mother & teacher.

I hope the forum doesn't mind but I wanted to share one more thing with you
as I continued my study of Abraham.
This is about the Darkness & I've found it
absolutely fascinating.
I also found Chabad websites valuable in addition to our own

I began a study of Abraham's "dread, and the great darkness that fell
upon him." I have sat in a few caves after turning out my light
just to see what the darkness feels like. Nothing compares to this study.

Torah provides us with three astonishingly awesome & dreadfully dark places.
These places can produce terror if one does not understand exactly who or
what is arriving out of them.. Yes, something this way comes.

1. Gen. 1:2---When the earth was astonishingly empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep.
Is this earth without the Sun or the heart without Torah?

2. Gen. 2.18----When G-d looks into man's heart & sees his loneliness & then exclaims "this is not good!"
You have to know this is dreadful.
HASHEM performs a circumcision on Adam's heart or the "side" & introduces Eve.
HASHEM has already made Adam in His Image. Eve or the Wisdom part of man is bundled deep inside Adam
& G-d is the only One Who has access.

3. Isaiah 44.2----The womb! "Thus said HASHEM concerning Jacob & Israel "Who made you & fashioned you from the womb,
Who will help you.." My, how this verse has caused great controversy concerning
how old a fetus should be before it can be called baby!
But!!!! what "womb" is the Torah speaking about in this example????

Exodus 4.22----Again, G-d knows what he is doing when HE hardens Pharaoh's heart
& then pronounces Israel as His "first-born son."

Jeremiah 1:4 "Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you."
Is this the belly of Egypt? Is there a spiritual womb as well as a physical?

The womb giving birth to Jeremiah is a dark place:
HASHEM immediately places Jeremiah over the kingdoms to smash, and to destroy & overthrow,
to build and plant hence the almond bud representing the swiftness of a prophet's birth & message..

Can one determine from these writings that sometimes HASHEM formed Israel by leading them
into certain experiences & circumstances? Has this led Israel into Torah's Light of a
spiritual eighth Day ?

There are two kinds of circumcision & two times in history that define who is Jewish.
I think this info also answers the question of "Who owns the Land (Creation)."

1. Genesis 2.21 HASHEM puts Adam into a deep sleep & performs surgery on his side (I'm assuming over the heart region) and replaces the area with flesh. Heart circumcision is also explained in
Deut. 10.16.

How do I know that HASHEM'S surgery on Adam is a circumcision of the heart????? Both Genesis 2.21 & Deut. 10.16 give accounts of the Creation & the fact that the earth belongs to HASHEM & he gives his son, Adam, authority over it. HASHEM'S firstborn is also introduced in
Exodus 4.22. "So said HASHEM, My first born son is Israel."

Circumcision of the heart (the physical body represents the spiritual).
Deuteronomy 10.14 provides a glimpse of Genesis' Creation before
Adam's surgery. As HASHEM explains in Deut. 10.16----
"Behold! To HASHEM, your G-d, are the heaven & the highest heaven, the earth & everything that is in it." Deut. 10.16.

Genesis 2.19 is also an account of the Creation.
Both Genesis & Deut provide a glimpse of the heart's circumcision.

The eighth DAY on which all this happens is first recorded in Gen. 2.21
Gen. 2.4 says "These are the products of the heaven & earth when
they were created" This coming Day eight after HASHEM'S original Sabbath rest.

HASHEM'S heart surgery on Adam comes after the Creation is finished
and G-d's Sabbath Day is recorded. In fact, the entire Spiritual Light of the eighth Day is continuous & no separation from Torah's Light. Therefore in the spiritual realm there is no Night. Torah's Light continues on into the infinite & when one wakes from the deep sleep of darkness, this is the first Light he sees.

I think I need writing lessons.
I am so thankful for HASHEM, His Torah & this forum!
Thanks everybody!

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