fast of esther

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fast of esther

Postby aries » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:18 pm

In the time of Rashi, a woman came who said that she had to go see the king. This is involved a very long ride. The problem was it was the fast of esther which had been brought forward to a Thursday because you don't fast on Shabat. She said she would like to fast on Friday instead. The Rabbi said although it is not anything from the torah or the kaballah (received oral law), it is still a minhag and we do not start messing around with a minhag. Now why did she think that Friday would be alright. Apparently there was a group of people who thought one should fast closer to Purim (Sunday) and they wanted to fast both Thursday and Friday. The Rav said " a fool walks in darkness". You may not be Machmer on a minhag. If you Machmer on a minhag you make it look like it was the same as something from the torah.

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Re: fast of esther

Postby martinbrody » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:16 pm

The Fast of Ester has nothing to do with Esther or Purim, other than the date.
Adar 13 was the Feast of Nicanor, celebrating the Maccabean victories of the Syrian general.
After the destruction of the Temple, it didn't seem appropriate to be feasting, and some turned it into a fast, eventually becoming common place As it was the day before Purim it became known as the Fast of Esther.
Esther didn't fast in Adar.

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Re: fast of esther

Postby Enora » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:05 am

Adar 13 was the Feast of Nicanor, celebrating the Maccabean victories of the Syrian general.

I didn't know this. Thanks for the info!
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Re: fast of esther

Postby aries » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:56 am

It is correct that the feast is mentioned in meggilat taanit where it also
Says one should not fast before Purim. Like all the other fifty or so feasts or fast days in the scroll, there is no signn of later observance besides Purim and Hanukkah. Your hypothesis must therefore be considered novel.The earliest mention is gaonic and reason given is it commemotates esters fast. Rabbeinu tam says

they fasted before fighting.
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Re: fast of esther

Postby martinbrody » Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:58 pm

aries wrote:It is correct that the feast is mentioned in meggilat taanit where it also
Says one should not fast before Purim. Like all the other fifty or so feasts or fast days in the scroll, there is no signn of later observance besides Purim and Hanukkah. Your hypothesis must therefore be considered novel.The earliest mention is gaonic and reason given is it commemotates esters fast. Rabbeinu tam says

they fasted before fighting.


"Your hypothesis must therefore be considered novel."

I would say logical.
And the Fast of the First Born has nothing to do with the 10th plague. Too many inconsistencies.
(It's a Golden Calf thing. The first born lost the Preisthood)
That these things become something else with time doesn't change the original premise. And Jews change things. No better example than Moses listening to R.Akiva expound on the Law and Moses completely perplexed, saying he didn't teach such a thing.
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Re: fast of esther

Postby LAGoff » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:13 am

martinbrody wrote:
aries wrote:It is correct that the feast is mentioned in meggilat taanit where it also
Says one should not fast before Purim. Like all the other fifty or so feasts or fast days in the scroll, there is no signn of later observance besides Purim and Hanukkah. Your hypothesis must therefore be considered novel.The earliest mention is gaonic and reason given is it commemotates esters fast. Rabbeinu tam says

they fasted before fighting.


"Your hypothesis must therefore be considered novel."

I would say logical.
And the Fast of the First Born has nothing to do with the 10th plague. Too many inconsistencies.
(It's a Golden Calf thing. The first born lost the Preisthood)
That these things become something else with time doesn't change the original premise. And Jews change things. No better example than Moses listening to R.Akiva expound on the Law and Moses completely perplexed, saying he didn't teach such a thing.
Best,

Martin B


If Jews change things after the Talmud, do I have to follow it?
Wasn't that the last time there was a duly constituted national body that all Israel looked to?
So now if someone says something, it's alright for me to say, Wait, let me look in the Talmud and see if I can find it before I do that?
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Re: fast of esther

Postby aries » Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:25 pm

Yes the new minhgim after the talmud have authority.
e.g. we wait after eating milk and meat.
with the shulchan aruchh we did close a period where each community chose one of several options for each law. New minhagim n from that time on tend to be less authority. With rise of chassisdut which threw out all the minhagim and made up new ones things have just not been the same.
Now what are we supposed to do today when we no longer live in a specific geographical area. One just has to wait a few hundred years till an American or israeli minhag develops.
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Re: fast of esther

Postby martinbrody » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:30 am

aries wrote:Yes the new minhgim after the talmud have authority.
e.g. we wait after eating milk and meat.
with the shulchan aruchh we did close a period where each community chose one of several options for each law. New minhagim n from that time on tend to be less authority. With rise of chassisdut which threw out all the minhagim and made up new ones things have just not been the same.
Now what are we supposed to do today when we no longer live in a specific geographical area. One just has to wait a few hundred years till an American or israeli minhag develops.


Way less time than that and it will happen.
Somebody objected to my accepting recently for suggesting that cheese doesn't need supervision at the point of the rennet following the Chachamin of Southern France (YD kuf yud gimmel of kuf tet vav) on the basis it's not accepted in America! Fools!
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Martin B
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Re: fast of esther

Postby Yisroelp » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:55 am

martinbrody wrote:Somebody objected to my accepting recently for suggesting that cheese doesn't need supervision at the point of the rennet following the Chachamin of Southern France (YD kuf yud gimmel of kuf tet vav) on the basis it's not accepted in America! Fools!
Best,
Martin B


Martin, you want to try that again? It made no sense to me.

KT.
Yisroel Phillips
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Re: fast of esther

Postby martinbrody » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:33 pm

Yisroelp wrote:
martinbrody wrote:Somebody objected to my accepting recently for suggesting that cheese doesn't need supervision at the point of the rennet following the Chachamin of Southern France (YD kuf yud gimmel of kuf tet vav) on the basis it's not accepted in America! Fools!
Best,
Martin B


Martin, you want to try that again? It made no sense to me.

KT.


Nor me! Sorry.
It was 2 issues. One, somebody claiming something is not the American custom! As if there such a thing!
The other was whether cheese really needs supervision at the time of inserting the rennet if it vegetable based.
The SA gives an opinion of the gaonim of Southern France that said it didn't.
There is such cheese available in the US, from supervised kosher dairies,( and way better than that other muck they call cheese!) but not guaranteed at time of the rennet. The SA references are above. The OU do a special run at this particular creamery for those thast reject that opinion..
Check it out. http://www.cabotcheese.coop/
Tabletk supervises the dairy.
Delicious stuff!
Bon appetit.
Martin B
Hope that clarifies
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