The nature of God

A place to share our current Torah learning - summaries, suggestions, discussions.
Forum rules
1. Polite discourse.
2. Quote your sources
3. Translate all but the most basic Hebrew terms (Torah, Mitzva/Mitzvot, Shabbat, Halacha).

Re: The nature of God

Postby mariaw » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:26 pm

Dear Dan, I would say yes to your comment about Moses taking care of the children of Israel.
I've also put together my thoughts on returning the garment: This garment is NOT your usual winter coat.

Genesis 49:11 tells us that Judah's will be an " assemblage of nations." "He will launder his garments in wine & his rob in the blood of grapes."
The Land's glory of Torah

The joys of Torah is a man's spiritual garment.
Timing: Psalms 50:1 "O Almighty God, HASHEM, spoke and called to the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting."
Beginning with Joseph in Egypt: Egypt is "naked" without Torah.
Genesis 42.9---Joseph remembers his dream & accuses his brothers of spying out the "land's nakedness."
Genesis 43.11--- Israel their father said to them, "Take the land's glory in your baggage & bring it down to the man as a tribute."
The Land's glory are the first-fruits. Israel leaves Egypt:
Exodus 3.22----"Each woman shall request from her neighbor and from the one who lives in her house silver vessels, golden vessels, and garments; and you shall put them on your sons & daughters, and you shall empty out Egypt."
Genesis 49:11----This is said of Judah, "His will be an assemblage of nations." "He will launder his garments in wine & his rob in the blood of grapes."
Judges 9:13----The vintage of the grapevine gladdens God and men. (This is the joy of Torah) The blood of grapes cover the Kings Garment
In other words, by the authority of Judah's scepter, the King teaches the nations Torah's Law & covers them with garments of joy & righteousness. Wine is symbolic of joy covering the Children of Israel.
The symbolic "garment."
Jer. 43.12----Nebuchadrezzar wraps up the booty of the land of Egypt as a shepard wraps things in his garment, and he will leave there in peace.
Genesis 42.9--- Balaam finally sees the "goodly tents of Jacob." This keeps the donkey, the ox & the garment (Torah studies covering the Children and the land of Israel) within the same context.
Exodus 22:25----"If you take your fellow's garment as security, until sunset shall you return it to him. For so it be that if he cries out to Me, I shall listen, for I am compassionate." The idea here is taking one's Torah learning time for a reason?
One must remember that God calls out to the earth from the rising to the setting of the sun. Psalms 50:1.

Thanks again, Dan
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Re: The nature of God

Postby Hart60 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:12 am

Thanks for sharing that with me Mariaw, I see what you mean but give me time to study it more and I expect I'll come back with more questions if you don't mind.
Posts: 752
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:05 pm
Location: North Devon,UK

Re: The nature of God

Postby mariaw » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:50 pm

Your welcome, Dan,
I've also finished the Ox. This was my most fascinating study. Maybe I can find somewhere to post it if the forum
doesn't mind.

Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Re: The nature of God

Postby Kira » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:46 pm

Please do, Maria!

The Ox is the symbol of Joseph - "the first born ox is his glory" (Deut 33:17)

Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: The nature of God

Postby mariaw » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:51 pm

Thanks for your insight Kira. You not only revealed the OX but his Garment (bounty of the sun's crops & the moon's yield) Deut. 33.14 is part of Joseph's story.
His garment is symbolic of Torah & Children of Israel.
Potiphar's wife tries to steal Joseph's righteousness by tempting him.
However, this is brought to Court, so to speak, along with Witnesses or the lack thereof to prove Truth.

Joseph sets a precedence for keeping specific Laws HASHEM gives to Moses.
Joseph is wrongly accused of a great evil & sin against G-d. Gen. 39.9
Deut. 5:21 "You shall not covet your fellow's wife, you shall not desire his house, his field, his slave, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that belongs to your fellow..."
Joseph is innocent & in keeping with finding witnesses, Potipher's wife can NOT find them.
Gen. 39:11 "no man of the household staff being there in the house."

Deut. 19:15---One witness is not acceptable. Matters are confirmnend by two or three witnesses.
There are many examples of two or more witnesses confirming Torah's Truth throughout Torah.
Sometimes they are called attendants.
Num. 22.22----There are two witnesses for Bilaam. "He was riding on his she-donkey & his two young men with him."
Num. 22.7----Balack's provides unacceptable witnesses. HASHEM asks, "Who are these men?"
Gen. 22:3----Three witnesses for Abraham's test. Two young men & Isaac.
1 Sam. 25.9---David's attendants came & spoke.

One of the root causes of ancient anti-semitism is economic in nature & perpetrated by Moab's false rumors and false witnesses.
Numbers 22.4----"Moab said to the elders of Midian, Now the congregation (Children of Israel) will lick up our entire surroundings, as an Ox is licking up all the greenery of the field."
Moab's statement is a clever way of saying that the loftiness of God, like the horn's of a re'eim will destroy the wicked who are blooming like grass while Jacob's dominion is spreading. The wicked hate this idea!

The "greenery of the field" already belongs to the Ox who is Joseph. This "greenery" is Torah.
Exodus 1:8----The new Egyptian King provides false accusations against Israel concerning war.

Zech 9:10----King says, "I will eliminate any battle chariot from Ephraim & any war horse from Jerusalem, and the bow of warfare will be eliminated; and he will speak peace to the nations. His dominion will be from sea to sea & from the river to the ends of the earth."
Exodus 1.8----King eliminates The bow of war which, in this context, is a false report coming from the king of Egypt.----"if war occurs, Israel who is smarter & more numerous will take sides against Egypt. "

King counteracts this by proving this is a lie & reminding the nations of the Law including "Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor."---Exodus 20.13 Lies can turn Torah into a sword of war.
Plowshare is a metaphor for the teaching tool of the Law.

Moab accuses Israel's kingdom of spreading and attemps to cause the threat of war among the nations. There is an article in Wikipedia on Economic-antisemitism during the Medieval era.
One wonders if the Holocaust was not caused by those who feared the spread of Jewish influence throughout Europe.
The question remains today as in ancient times, Does G-d really exist & did G-d really say these things to Moses & Israel?
With Torah's Laws, one can certainly understand that God does exist & yes, HE really spoke to Moses because the Law unveils Jewish history as Torah's True record. Whether the world recognizes Torah's witnesses or not........HASHEM DOES!

Zech 9:11 says when the King returns, he releases prisoners from the pit and speaks peace to the nations. One "prisoner of the pit" is Joseph, the OX. I hope this helps! Its pretty wordy & long. I apologize!
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Re: The nature of God

Postby mariaw » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:44 pm

Dear Kira, I hope you don't mind one more thought...:-)

Sending away the Mother Bird
How can you have an OX without an EAGLE? The eagle is the biblical metaphor for HASHEM'S mercy, majesty and redemption.

What would sending away a mother bird have to do with G-d's Covenant with the Children of Israel?

There are only two times that Torah records sending birds away.

The first during Abraham's account with the "Pieces." (Gen. 15.11) And secondly,
the Law of the Mother Bird with her young whether eggs or hatchlings where you find them.

The thought is to "take the young for yourself, so that it will be good for you & will prolong your days." Deut. 22:6
Abraham & Sara's days were already prolonged.
I'm using the Stone Edition, Tanach

The Link connecting the "mother bird" to the Covenant is found in the language describing Abraham's strange actions upon the "birds of prey" during G-d's giving the Covenant to Abraham.

Abraham certainly knew the topic was about his unborn children & "taking the young for himself."

The "Mother Bird" eagle would be sent from that place into Egypt where the children were to journey.
Their stay in Egypt was already planned to insure Israel's survival in the land & to sustain them for a momentous deliverance. (Genesis 45.7)

Israel's Exodus would show the Power of G-d's loftiness & care of His young. (Num. 23.22)
Deut. 32.11 "He was like an eagle arousing its nest, hovering over its young spreading its wings & taking them, carrying them on its pinions."

The Ark of the Covenant had wings spreading over it. The Ark also carried the Tablets of Law as well as Aaron's rod that buds.
As Dan writes, "Moses in "The Guide for the Perplexed" indicates that God is Incorporeal."

The vision of birds of prey appearing to Abraham were most likely eagles representing G-d's nature. We see their faces in the
Could the foundation stone have been symbolically represented as large eagle's nest?
Eagles are one of the few birds returning every year to the same nest.

Just a thought I couldn't pass up,
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Re: The nature of God

Postby Hart60 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:51 pm

Excellent,I follow your thoughts,thanks Mariaw.

Posts: 752
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:05 pm
Location: North Devon,UK

Re: The nature of God

Postby Kira » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:33 am

Interesting, especially Moav's reference to the ox. It's almost like he's mixing metaphors there, isn't it? If you feel threatened, you say, "I feel like grass that's about to be eaten by a cow"? Really? Oxen are dangerous, but usually people are afraid of their horns, not their tongues. But he doesn't say, "like an ox that will go an gore us all". I think you're right, and it's yet another manifestation of the irrationality of anti-semitism.

As for the spread of Jews throughout Europe, that was a stated, explicit fear of anti-Semites after the Emancipation. Not only Hitler (may his name be erased). He saw us as a "cancer". Not coincidentally, that is the rhetoric currently used against the State of Israel. "Zionism is a cancer". Never mind that we have absolutely 0 intention of spreading out beyond our border, and never mind that we were there first. People who mention these facts are ostracized or worse.

(One little point about witnesses: Avraham left his two servants behind, "stay here with the donkey". It was just him and Isaac, and G-d, no witnesses, no audience)

Eagles - G-d is sometimes an eagle (or vulture), but sometimes it is Edom (see Ovadiah) or others that presume to take on that much power.

Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: The nature of God

Postby mariaw » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:19 pm

Dear Kira,
I was wondering the same about Moab mixing the metaphor & then perhaps I'm guilty of mixing them as well, so I decided to find other examples of the same attitude as Moab's.
First of all, I wonder about the slaughter of bulls, goats etc. I believe these are living creatures & Torah's teachers, priests & prophets used them to teach & develop the various points of Torah stories.

Moab hated seeing the peaceful nature of a cow munching grass.
His thinking is more like the Egyptians who abhored the shepherds during Joseph's time. (Gen. 46.34)
Does Moab think a grazing cow more obnoxious than the swords of war?

The shepherds & the cow are metaphors for the restful pastoral scene that HASHEM provides the righteous in the end.
Balaam sees this in his vision. (Num 23.9) "I see it rock-like & from hills do I see it. It is a nation that will dwell in solitude & not be reckoned among the nations."

A good question is why all this beauty & peace angers Balack so badly?
When you are reckoned among the nations, you have to endure Jezebel & her chaotic murderous priests.
Her end was with the wild dogs roaming the grasslands.

The prophet Elijah contrasts Torah's history of Jacob & his 12 sons including HASHEM'S NAME with the turmoil, noise & rebellion caused by Jezebel. Elijah questions the group. "If HASHEM is the G-d, go after him! And if Baal, go after it." (1 Kings 18.2)
The prophet Isaiah describes the reason for Israel's not being reckoned among the nations in Isaiah 44.6.
"HASHEM is King of Israel & beside Him there is no God."

Some people just love the darkness & I doubt seriously they truly understand the significance of sin.

Thanks again, Kira, for your inspiration,
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:23 pm

Re: The nature of God

Postby secretofgenesis » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:36 pm

I have the same view as with Mariaw on the garment. There is the physical side to the garment, and there is also the spiritual side. Since the Torah has the perspective of both physical and spiritual, the word "garment" always has them. On the spiritual side, it is also the one covering the person. And when that person is covered by it, that is the one seen by the spiritual eye. So to the the spiritual eye or understanding, the garment of skin is the lower level garment. This is what Adam and Eve got when they sinned. The clean garment is the one that is good in the eyes of God, it is in the good side of the Torah. The white wool garment as can be seen on the Ancient of Days is the highest level garment, which a person who follows the Torah with his whole heart also has. God also can be seen as with a garment of light. Only a pillar of light can be seen by the spiritual eye.
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:31 am


Return to Learning Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest