Making Kiddush

Discussing what is the right thing to say, and the right way to act, in situations arising in a Torah environment.
Forum rules
Please be sure that whatever case you relate has been changed enough to protect the innocent.

Re: Making Kiddush

Postby rivka » Fri May 28, 2010 2:57 am

Huh. I was always taught that it's a problem for a woman to be motzi a man for kiddush.
rivka
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Making Kiddush

Postby Yisroelp » Fri May 28, 2010 2:41 pm

rivka wrote:Huh. I was always taught that it's a problem for a woman to be motzi a man for kiddush.


Problem? What problem? :roll:
Yisroel Phillips
Yisroelp
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:06 pm
Location: London, England

Re: Making Kiddush

Postby rivka » Fri May 28, 2010 2:52 pm

Isn't the chiyuv different? In which case, isn't there a problem?
rivka
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Making Kiddush

Postby Saronic » Fri May 28, 2010 10:40 pm

rivka wrote:Isn't the chiyuv different? In which case, isn't there a problem?

If I may get technical!

Gemara Brachos, daf 20: wrote: אמר רב אדא בר אהבה נשים חייבות בקדוש היום דבר תורה אמאי מצות עשה שהזמן גרמא הוא וכל מצות עשה שהזמן גרמא נשים פטורות אמר אביי מדרבנן א"ל רבא והא דבר תורה קאמר ועוד כל מצות עשה נחייבינהו מדרבנן אלא אמר רבא אמר קרא (שמות כ) זכור (דברים ה) ושמור כל שישנו בשמירה ישנו בזכירה והני נשי הואיל ואיתנהו בשמירה איתנהו בזכירה

Cliffnotes: Women are biblically obligated in reciting Kiddush! One might have thought that women wouldn't be obligated in Kiddush the way men are, because Kiddush seems to be a time-caused commandment and women are usually exempt from those. But no, we learn from specific words chosen in the two times the Ten Utterances were given to us that everyone obligated in keeping Shabbos is obligated in acknowledging Shabbos (aka Kiddush).

Basically every Rishon* quotes this Gemara verbatim. The Mishna Brura (רעא) says that the Taz, the Magen Avraham, the Gra, and other Achronim** agree. The Mishna Brura even says that they can fulfill a man's obligation even after she's fulfilled her own obligation. He does, however, mention there are those that are stringent and do not have women fulfill men (from a different household)'s obligation because it's זילה מלתא - below the man's dignity. I've heard several Rabbis today state that the Mishna Brura here is making a sociological statement and not a halachic argument.

Shabbat Shalom!

*Medieval Judge/Commentator of Jewish Law
**Later Judges/Commentators of Jewish Law
Saronic
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:04 am

Re: Making Kiddush

Postby martinbrody » Sat May 29, 2010 12:22 am

rivka wrote:Isn't the chiyuv different? In which case, isn't there a problem?



Nah. Everybody is obligated. Historically men would do it for their wives because they couldn't read Hebrew. I've been thinking about this.In fact it may be better for a woman to make kiddush for men than ha Motzie. Ha motzie in part is re-enacting Temple service which was exclusively male. Kiddush on wine is not connected to the Temple and sanctifying Shabbat.
Thoughts?

Best,
Martin B
martinbrody
 
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:35 pm

Re: Making Kiddush

Postby Kira » Sun May 30, 2010 6:18 am

Ha motzie in part is re-enacting Temple service
On Shabbat? Never heard that.

To take your logic further, women wouldn't be obligated in Netilat Yadaim (washing hands before bread)

-Kira
Kira
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:55 pm

Re: Making Kiddush

Postby rivka » Sun May 30, 2010 8:09 am

Huh. Consider me edumacated. ;)

But I think we'll continue to have my son make kiddush and me make motzi.
rivka
 
Posts: 458
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Making Kiddush

Postby martinbrody » Sun May 30, 2010 4:38 pm

Kira wrote:
Ha motzie in part is re-enacting Temple service
On Shabbat? Never heard that.

To take your logic further, women wouldn't be obligated in Netilat Yadaim (washing hands before bread)

-Kira



Didn't say that women weren't obligated as much as men, but maybe men are slightly more connected to it via Temple worship. The connection to the Temple on Shabbat /Yom Tov is the table is the alter. The candles are the menorah, and the bread is the showbread in front of the alter, and salt was part of the procedure.
And I'm perfectly comfortable with a woman making ha motzie for me. I just suggested that with kiddush there is no connection to the Temple but is sanctifying Shabbat and has even more claim to egalitarianism.
Best,
Martin B
martinbrody
 
Posts: 155
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:35 pm

Re: Making Kiddush

Postby Kira » Mon May 31, 2010 9:09 am

The candles are the menorah, and the bread is the showbread in front of the alter, and salt was part of the procedure
That's a nice D'rash, but that's all it is. There's no Halachic significance.

Although sometimes there are Halachot that are based on a Kabbalistic issue. I recently saw a Mishna Brura (recent Halachic authority) that spelled out when we let it influence and when we don't. It went something like: "if there is established Halacha, then no, but if there is variation then we do what Kabbala suggests is better", but more complicated.

Like using the bottom Challa on Friday night and the top Challa on Shabbat day.

-Kira
Kira
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:55 pm

Previous

Return to Torah Etiquette

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron