Making kiddush (chapter two)

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Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Sander » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:26 pm

I started a fresh thread to make it easy to jump in, because there were already four pages in the "making kiddush" thread.

Question #1.
If a man in his home makes kiddish at lunch time on shabbat, because the majority of his house and guests are waiting to eat lunch, and then what if:

a. A minor child of the man arrives late. The father says, "Have you heard kiddish yet" and the child says no. Does the father then say kiddish a second time so the child can hear? I think yes, but the father has already fulfilled his obligation before the child arrived, and the child is obligated only for the purpose of training. Therefore I might think that the father is making a blessing a second time, which might be a problem of making a blessing without a reason.

b. A person of age of mitzva arrives late. The man says, "Have you heard kiddush yet" and the person says "No, please would you make kiddish for me?". The man already said kiddush before the person arrived late. Does the man now have to refuse, saying, "I have already made kiddush for myself, so I cannot make kiddish again for you to listen. You will have to make kiddish for yourself." My understanding is that this is not so. On the contrary, my understanding is that one can make kiddush several times. So if there is a late arrival, one can make kiddush a second time for the late one to hear. If there is even another who arrives after that, then one can make kiddush again for the third time. And so on.

Question #2.
I do not understand the expression "to have someone in mind" when making kiddush. If one has someone in mind, and that someone is absent and does not hear, then nothing is accomplished. If one has someone in mind, and that someone is present and does hear, then the obligation is fulfilled by hearing it, not by the one making kiddush 'having someone in mind'.

And the point is, if someone is present and does not listen, their mind is diverted, then in my opinion they have not fulfilled their obligation, even if the master who spoke the kiddush "had them in mind".

Question #3.
It was mentioned an opinion that to insist on making one's own kiddush after the master of the house has recited, is to be rude. How can this be so? I have seen the following practice. A father, the master of the house, makes kiddush at table with his sons hearing. Then the oldest son makes kiddish "for himself". Then the second son makes kiddish "for himself". This is more common when the son is 13 or a few years more, as the son is only recently obligated and eager to perform, and the father enjoys to witness that his son walks in the path.



Question #4.
(Not really a question, but a possible explanation)
As I understand, the reason for having one person say kiddush for others to hear, is to conclude the kiddush promptly so that all may proceed to hamotzi and se'udah mitzva. It is not right to delay se'udah mitzva. This is even more true when there are small children at the table, that one should make kiddush with alacrity.

However, if another person arrives late after hamotzi and most have begun to eat, then no matter whether the new arrival says kiddush for himself, or the master of the house says kiddush for him, the se'udah mitzva is not delayed more one way or the other.

Question #5.
If a person is deaf or hard of hearing to the extent it is not likely they can hear the kiddush recited by another, then is that person obligated to recite for himself or herself ?


All the above are my questions and my thoughts for you to respond, so that I could be corrected. Please do not take anything I write as giving instruction.
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Yisroelp » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:47 pm

I'd just like to make a preliminary point that may help in understanding any replies you receive to your questions, and that is that Kiddush at lunchtime basically consists of the Blessing over wine or whisky (or on whatever drink you are making Kiddush on). So to make Kiddush again on (say) wine while one is still eating the meal that came right after Kiddush would be a problem, as that would definitely be an unnecessary Blessing, especially if the person who wishes you to make Kiddush for him/her is perfectly capable of reciting the Blessing him or herself.
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Sander » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:57 am

Yisroelp wrote:I'd just like to make a preliminary point that may help in understanding any replies you receive to your questions, and that is that Kiddush at lunchtime basically consists of the Blessing over wine or whisky (or on whatever drink you are making Kiddush on). So to make Kiddush again on (say) wine while one is still eating the meal that came right after Kiddush would be a problem, as that would definitely be an unnecessary Blessing, especially if the person who wishes you to make Kiddush for him/her is perfectly capable of reciting the Blessing him or herself.

I attend a regular kiddush at a shul near me, and the rabbi of the shul holds up a cup of wine (or maybe it is juice, I never really checked) and says kiddush. And then we eat some food at the shul kiddush, such as herring and cake, various other things. So now what happens when that rabbi gets home. Can he make kiddush again at home for his family? He already made a blessing on wine before he came home.

And what about me. After I have heard kiddush at the shul, and had some herring, and then maybe visit my neighbor; he asks me, "Would you like to make kiddush for yourself?" If I already heard kiddush, said "amen" to "...boray pree hagafen", had a sip of wine or juice, and taken a piece of herring; am I now disqualified from making my own kiddush?

I feel that I am missing some basic principles here, because the more I think about it, the complications seem endless.
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Yisroelp » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:50 am

Sander wrote: I attend a regular kiddush at a shul near me, and the rabbi of the shul holds up a cup of wine (or maybe it is juice, I never really checked) and says kiddush. And then we eat some food at the shul kiddush, such as herring and cake, various other things. So now what happens when that rabbi gets home. Can he make kiddush again at home for his family? He already made a blessing on wine before he came home.

And what about me. After I have heard kiddush at the shul, and had some herring, and then maybe visit my neighbor; he asks me, "Would you like to make kiddush for yourself?" If I already heard kiddush, said "amen" to "...boray pree hagafen", had a sip of wine or juice, and taken a piece of herring; am I now disqualified from making my own kiddush?

I feel that I am missing some basic principles here, because the more I think about it, the complications seem endless.


That's because the laws relating to Blessings on food are extremely complicated indeed.

In the situations you mention, you have to see whether on general principles you are now obligated to make another Blessing on the wine (or whatever you are having) or cake, or whether the one you made previously still applies. For foods and drinks that require a Shehakol Blessing, moving to another location would obligate you to make another Shehakol. If the Rabbi (as our Rabbi does) or you recited the Al HaMichya Blessing, then another Blessing would be required even without a change of location.
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Yisroelp » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:57 am

Sander wrote:Question #2.
I do not understand the expression "to have someone in mind" when making kiddush. If one has someone in mind, and that someone is absent and does not hear, then nothing is accomplished. If one has someone in mind, and that someone is present and does hear, then the obligation is fulfilled by hearing it, not by the one making kiddush 'having someone in mind'.

And the point is, if someone is present and does not listen, their mind is diverted, then in my opinion they have not fulfilled their obligation, even if the master who spoke the kiddush "had them in mind".


It's a 2-way street, as it were. The person making the Kiddush (or whatever other Mitzvah it may be, like, for example, blowing Shofar) must have in mind that he is reciting the Blessing (or blowing the Shofar) in order that the obligation of the other person may be fulfilled (that is the having him "in mind" that you mention) and the other person must also listen with the intention that this listening shall fulfill his own obligation. I believe this is derived from the (somewhat controversial) principle that Mitzvot tzrichot kavana [Mitzvot require intention].
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Kira » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:29 pm

Yossi's going to research his assertion that it's better to make one kiddush than to split up.

Meanwhile, some basics that might help:

Unlike pretty much any other mitzvah, someone who has already made kiddush can still make kiddush for another person. It is preferable for them to do it themselves, but if they are not able, someone can do it for them, even if they've already made kiddush. (BTW, women have exactly the same obligation as men, so there is absolutely no reason why a woman wouldn't make kiddush for herself. In fact, it's still preferable than having a man who already made kiddush do it for her.)

You don't have to have massive kavana to make kiddush for people. Unless someone has something unusual in mind, the default assumption is that the person making kiddush is doing so for everyone around the table, and that everyone around the table is having kiddush made for them. You don't have to focus on anything for that to happen. You just have to be there and hear it, in the sense of hearing the words, not understanding or intending or anything like that.

We are careful to make sure that the people hearing kiddush are in fact around the table, and not floating around the room.

-Kira
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Saronic » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:13 am

Kira wrote:(BTW, women have exactly the same obligation as men, so there is absolutely no reason why a woman wouldn't make kiddush for herself. In fact, it's still preferable than having a man who already made kiddush do it for her.)


Is that true for Shabbos Day as well?
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Kira » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:15 am

Yes, why not?

-Kira
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Saronic » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:46 am

I've heard that definitely on Shabbos night women have the same (Torah) obligation as men, but that Shabbos day there's a dispute. Either both men and women are obligated on a Rabbinic level or just men or if the nature of the Rabbinic obligation is different.
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Kira » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:33 am

Not that I've heard, no. I'll double-check.

Meanwhile - R' Yossi (my husband) asked his Hilchot Shabbat rebbe, R' Ostroff (a talmid of R' Shlomo Zalman), to confirm that it is best to make one Kiddush for as many people as possible, and he did confirm it. Sources will follow, but yes, it is a question of "b'rov am hadrat melech".

To answer Sander above, the reason it would be taken as an insult is as follows: if one should be yotzei with one's host because that is the best way of making Kiddush, then to separate oneself from that group implies that you're (a) separating yourself from the meal and (b) you don't think that your host can make Kiddush for you. Either way, not good.

I guess people who have their sons make Kiddush also are training them, but for what? It would also be fine to have them make Kiddush for the entire table, just as people ask their sons to lead the bensching.

-Kira
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