Making kiddush (chapter two)

Discussing what is the right thing to say, and the right way to act, in situations arising in a Torah environment.
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Sander » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:19 am

Kira wrote:Meanwhile - R' Yossi (my husband) asked his Hilchot Shabbat rebbe, R' Ostroff (a talmid of R' Shlomo Zalman), to confirm that it is best to make one Kiddush for as many people as possible, and he did confirm it. Sources will follow, but yes, it is a question of "b'rov am hadrat melech".

To answer Sander above, the reason it would be taken as an insult is as follows: if one should be yotzei with one's host because that is the best way of making Kiddush, then to separate oneself from that group implies that you're (a) separating yourself from the meal and (b) you don't think that your host can make Kiddush for you. Either way, not good.
-Kira
And if there is a gathering, as did happen to me when we had a speaker last November, and there are 5 or 6 tables in a mid-size hall? Does the principle "b'rov am hadrat melech" suggest that one leader make kiddush for all the tables, and it would be rude for some of the tables to make separate kiddush for each of their tables?

I think one cannot press too hard on the principle "b'rov am hadrat melech", because it is a natural tendency for large groups to break into smaller groups. Or maybe the concept is exactly that we should resist the tendency to fragment ourselves. I see there may be a pscyhological issue for me personally, in that I prefer to be with fewer than with more people.

I think it comes down to a balance between privacy and publicity. If one pushed to make a large gathering every shabbat, it would not be good in the long run, as it would decrease the opportunity for intimate dining with one's own family.

By the way, as we are discussing b'rov am, does this apply to other nations? I saw in the news that half a million people gathered at the Lincoln Memorial last Saturday, and they made prayer according to their belief. It was reported that gathering was peaceful, which gave me a feeling of inspiration, because in many places and many occasions, such as when people gather at airports to arrive and depart, there is a feeling of danger.
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Enora » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:38 am

And if there is a gathering, as did happen to me when we had a speaker last November, and there are 5 or 6 tables in a mid-size hall? Does the principle "b'rov am hadrat melech" suggest that one leader make kiddush for all the tables, and it would be rude for some of the tables to make separate kiddush for each of their tables?


The problem in such cases may be audibility. Which is why sometimes it's better to have each table do their own kiddush.
If the audience is noisy, if the leader/speaker doesn't recite kiddush loud enough...
Depends what kind of crowd (disciplined or not) and how big.
Let's say your table is at the back of the room. You turn to your neighbor "Did you hear the kiddush?" neighbors say no, nobody at the table heard it so it must be done again. That isn't rude.
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Re: Making kiddush (chapter two)

Postby Kira » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:45 am

If it's a single gathering, then yes, one person should make Kiddush for everyone. They can split up for Hamotzi, apparently that isn't an issue for Hamotzi. If they're all there to hear a speaker, than they can certainly all hear Kiddush.

Ditto for Kiddush celebrations in shul - the right thing to do is for the rabbi (or Ba'al Simcha, or whoever) to make Kiddush for everyone, rather than people going off on their own.

Yes, the reason it's there is because the natural tendency is to separate into groups, especially Jews. Sometimes that's fine, and sometimes, Chazal want us to stand together, for Hashem's honor, just for a moment.

-Kira
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